tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post4335893069559008646..comments2023-05-02T23:19:12.706+10:00Comments on Armarium Magnum: "Agora" and Hypatia - Hollywood Strikes AgainTim O'Neillhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comBlogger152125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-23001239498954672972010-07-28T11:26:26.583+10:002010-07-28T11:26:26.583+10:00Over one year and 153 comments later, I think it&#...Over one year and 153 comments later, I think it's time to close this discussion. We've been over the same ground several times and it's now becoming little more than place where those outraged that their myths are being questioned can come and shreik and stamp their feet. Besides, there is a much more detailed analysis of this movie in my recent blog post and anyone who really Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-100581680811689522010-07-27T14:21:29.005+10:002010-07-27T14:21:29.005+10:00The translator of Bruno's Ash Wednesday Supper...The translator of Bruno's <i>Ash Wednesday Supper</i> commented that, if they had bothered to read the book, the Copernicans themselves would have happily burned Bruno. Where he mentions Copernicus, he disparages him in favor of the genius of Bruno. Yet where he tries to get specific about astronomy, he shows he is unfamiliar with it.TheOFloinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14756711106266484327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-68159502976210346692010-07-27T13:36:27.281+10:002010-07-27T13:36:27.281+10:00In 1600 it was not considered heretical to believe...In 1600 it was not considered heretical to believe the sun went around the earth. As I noted, 77 years before Bruno's trial the Pope himself was happily contemplating this very idea. Bruno, however, also believed that the Trinity was a fraud, that Jesus wasn't divine, that Mary wasn't a virgin, that Transubstantiation wasn't true and that souls reincarnated. <br /><br /><b>Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-21682181162653095202010-07-26T21:13:20.282+10:002010-07-26T21:13:20.282+10:00"he defended his theories as scientifically f..."he defended his theories as scientifically founded and by no means against the Holy Scriptures: "Firstly, I say that the theories on the movement of the earth and on the immobility of the firmament or sky are by me produced on a reasoned and sure basis, which doesn’t undermine the authority of the Holy Sciptures […]. With regard to the sun, I say that it doesn’t rise or set, nor do we Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-19102631056292018522010-07-26T20:57:05.641+10:002010-07-26T20:57:05.641+10:00Bruno never did any "science". He accep...Bruno never did any "science". He accepted heliocentrism because it fitted with his purely mystical world view. And heliocentirsm wasn't even heretical anyway. 77 years before Bruno was put to death for his religious ideas, Pope Clement VII enjoyed a lecture on Copernicus' theories by Johann Widmanstadt delivered in the Vatican gardens. He found the lecture so fascinating heTim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-40723317950363410482010-07-26T20:41:21.203+10:002010-07-26T20:41:21.203+10:00I'd agree in part - Bruno's trial focussed...I'd agree in part - Bruno's trial focussed more on his pantheistic beliefs than his science, but nevertheless the Catholic church was by that time become firmly entrenched in Aristotelian science as underpinning its theology, which was a bad mistake (and of the kind that Augustine had warned about centuries before)Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-75698417946004931362010-07-26T19:47:00.159+10:002010-07-26T19:47:00.159+10:00do you really believe:
1) that Cyril was just doi...<i>do you really believe:<br /><br />1) that Cyril was just doing what any good bishop would do under like circumstances?<</i><br /><br />No.<br /><br /> <i>Do you know what the Novations stood for and why he persecuted them? Why he called in his personal army of Nitrian monks (though how they could remotely be considered "men of God" is beyond me) to do his dirty work?</i><br /><br Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-26369700374059489912010-07-25T21:55:39.433+10:002010-07-25T21:55:39.433+10:00Surely the question is not whether Cyril was a Chr...Surely the question is not whether Cyril was a Christian fanatic, but whether he was more representative of the Christian church than the Christians who studied under Hypatia (and who saw nothing inherently anti-Christian in her beliefs)?<br /><br />And to lump this together with Giordano Bruno etc as "crimes by the church" is rather like looking at "crimes of Rome" as TonyTheProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10486414706261508994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-47641611265030428142010-07-25T13:13:49.945+10:002010-07-25T13:13:49.945+10:00Finally saw the film almost a year after its relea...Finally saw the film almost a year after its release, hardly having enough car chases and explosions to merit a big PR push in the Bible Belt.<br /><br />So you really think this was just another Church-bashing pandering to neo-atheists? Without repeating some of the other objections above, do you really believe:<br /><br />1) that Cyril was just doing what any good bishop would do under like Abraxas123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-79515481087579527272010-06-22T06:20:06.548+10:002010-06-22T06:20:06.548+10:00An anonymous person tried this:
In the West it is...An anonymous person tried this:<br /><br /><i>In the West it is difficult to imagine that such a power struggle would be devoid of Christian arguments for which side should win. </i><br /><br />In other words, you clearly have no clues about what was happening in the West and are now just grasping hopefully at anything that makes it sound like you have some kind of case. Pathetic.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-27522061883795841742010-06-22T03:19:11.181+10:002010-06-22T03:19:11.181+10:00The Dark Ages are a western European phenomenon, w...<i>The Dark Ages are a western European phenomenon, whereas Christianity was as strong, or even stronger, in the east as well.</i><br /><br />It could have quite simply been a different power dynamic.<br /><br />Taking your account of Hypatia's death into it, the Christian Church in the West looks to have been subject to a destabilising power struggle at the time of the fall. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-8868398238379168932010-06-18T23:11:18.798+10:002010-06-18T23:11:18.798+10:00You know? I actually miss Caturo's feeble rant...You know? I actually miss Caturo's feeble ranting and raving. Good comedy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-83429061196491720002010-06-15T10:15:33.871+10:002010-06-15T10:15:33.871+10:00Aristarchus did not discover heliocentrism.
a) ...Aristarchus did not discover heliocentrism. <br /><br />a) It's not clear from the surviving fragment if he thought the sun the center or the Central Fire. Pythagoreans thought the sun was a mirror.<br />b) He did not discover it; he simply asserted it. The Fire was in the center because Fire was nobler than Earth and the center was a nobler position than the periphery. There are many TheOFloinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14756711106266484327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-38024433872016248992010-06-14T10:13:16.547+10:002010-06-14T10:13:16.547+10:00She also couldn't have espoused heliocentrism ...She also couldn't have espoused heliocentrism because (i) she was the daughter of the most famous editor of Ptolemy and almost certainly accepted the Ptolemaic model and (ii) someone would have mentioned it if she had because any espousal of Aristarchus' theory would have been highly unusual given that it had long since been rejected.<br /><br />We only know of Aristarchus' ideas fromTim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-86731030909047228452010-06-14T08:53:09.535+10:002010-06-14T08:53:09.535+10:00That German video is bizarre. Of course she could ...That German video is bizarre. Of course she could not have discovered Heliocentrism (remember Aristarchus about 500 or 600 years earlier).Anebohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05865020806337781472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-39437251966316046602010-06-14T05:53:11.984+10:002010-06-14T05:53:11.984+10:00Jarett said:
I don't think there is really an...Jarett said:<br /><br /><i>I don't think there is really anything in the film to support either of these ideas. Nowhere in the film is it suggested that this event ushered in a Dark Age, or signaled a rise in religious fundamentalism. Essentially, you are objecting to a theme that doesn't exist (in this film). </i><br /><br />Then we must have seen different movies. As I detail in my Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-42765390396425954762010-06-13T21:20:22.081+10:002010-06-13T21:20:22.081+10:00Of course, we don't "know" the motiv...Of course, we don't "know" the motivations of the players and the mob, and thus the question of to what degree and in which ways dogmatism actually played a role in the historical incident, is of course debatable - but that merely makes the movie speculative, not inaccurate, or pseudo-historical. Moreover, it's important to note that the theme of the film is not really a Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03341645987584121413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-22522249794840809882010-06-13T21:20:22.082+10:002010-06-13T21:20:22.082+10:00Hi Tim,
Now that this movie is out in Canada I wa...Hi Tim,<br /><br />Now that this movie is out in Canada I was able to see it (personally, I loved it). Read through some of the arguments here - quite interesting - and wanted to comment that I quite disagree with your view of the theme of the movie. Specifically, per your comment: <br /><br />"But it's the "overlaying theme of the movie" that I'm objecting to. Hypatia'Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03341645987584121413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-11191193839532010402010-06-13T03:49:08.630+10:002010-06-13T03:49:08.630+10:00Good point.Good point.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-18255081828287759382010-06-13T03:15:41.905+10:002010-06-13T03:15:41.905+10:00Could you get off the 'skinning' please.
...Could you get off the 'skinning' please.<br /><br />Evidently this comes from Gibbon. I assume you have a sufficient command of the sources to see that there is no mention of any such thing in any ancient text. Killing someone with tiles means stoning them to death. I said this before, and it is not some bizarre pet theory. Go look it up the uses of 'ostracon' in the LSJ yourself.Anebohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05865020806337781472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-91983366619390231972010-06-13T03:00:20.397+10:002010-06-13T03:00:20.397+10:00Anonymous asked;
What bugged me though was your a...Anonymous asked;<br /><br /><i>What bugged me though was your absolute certainty that Hypatia was not killed for being a freethinker - how can you rely so faithfully on accounts authored by people who had "their own wheelbarrows to push".</i><br /><br />I said nothing about "absolute certainty". The study of history is about what is most <b>probable</b>, given the evidence. Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-83093850941438660712010-06-12T23:50:58.525+10:002010-06-12T23:50:58.525+10:00Thanks for clearing up a lot of questions I had wh...Thanks for clearing up a lot of questions I had while squirming through 2 (or was it 4?) hours of watching Agora. Greatly enjoyed reading your insights. <br />What bugged me though was your absolute certainty that Hypatia was not killed for being a freethinker - how can you rely so faithfully on accounts authored by people who had "their own wheelbarrows to push". It would not be the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-19072382550299707132010-06-09T14:30:41.258+10:002010-06-09T14:30:41.258+10:00This is a really interesting post. I only found it...This is a really interesting post. I only found it after I <a href="http://orneryworld.blogspot.com/2010/06/agora-or-on-being-oh-so-fucking-clever.html" rel="nofollow">wrote about Agora</a>, but I've added a link so my readers - both of them, ha ha - can follow on to your expert perspective. Thanks.Homagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816188498688673553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-25599169662214341202010-06-07T12:47:25.418+10:002010-06-07T12:47:25.418+10:00To Tim O Neill,
I am a deist and consider myself ...To Tim O Neill,<br /><br />I am a deist and consider myself sympathetic to Christianity, First of all, if you have time and are reading this. I would like to thank you for your brilliant defence of the objectivity of History and not History as distorted by anti-christian bigoted media producers and bloggers like the ones you've talked to. <br /><br />Although it shocks me that in this day Alvinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-51866851737702205492010-06-07T12:44:28.114+10:002010-06-07T12:44:28.114+10:00To Tim O Neill,
I am a deist and consider myself ...To Tim O Neill,<br /><br />I am a deist and consider myself sympathetic to Christianity, First of all, if you have time and are reading this. I would like to thank you for your brilliant defence of the objectivity of History and not History as distorted by anti-christian bigoted media producers and bloggers like the ones you've talked to. <br /><br />Although it shocks me that in this day Alvinnoreply@blogger.com