tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post1800844556625923968..comments2023-05-02T23:19:12.706+10:00Comments on Armarium Magnum: Hypatia and "Agora" ReduxTim O'Neillhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comBlogger183125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-44963795300592390812011-02-15T13:56:54.825+11:002011-02-15T13:56:54.825+11:00After almost a year and 186 comments, I think this...After almost a year and 186 comments, I think this discussion has outlived its usefulness. It became clear quite a while ago that some of the <i>Agora</i> defenders and true believers in Gibbon's myths on this subject weren't even bothering to read what has been said before, though given the length of this thread that's not entirely surprising. <br /><br />Thanks to all who Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-53538941173693390882011-02-13T07:20:17.419+11:002011-02-13T07:20:17.419+11:00@Anonymous.
I don't really see what I am guilt...@Anonymous.<br />I don't really see what I am guilty of.<br />Of course most people interviewed attribute heliocentrism to Copernicus/Galileo. The whole point of the ad is to show that the common view is a misconception. That's why they have the little boy, who's talking about Hypatia, and the insert announcing Agora towards the end - their point is that the movie will set the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-63490352994665151142011-02-06T16:34:28.404+11:002011-02-06T16:34:28.404+11:00Baerista: Your representation of the German inter...Baerista: Your representation of the German interviews is unfair. First, if the itnerviews are part of an ad, then we can't expect them to be necessarily representative. Second, a number of people explained that the sun went around the earth (and/or some-thing more complicated but also wrong). THAT they did not get from the film (in fact, if this is an ad, maybe the interviews were made Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-21881642801184731692011-01-03T06:30:49.509+11:002011-01-03T06:30:49.509+11:00An interesting post might be to lay the five accou...An interesting post might be to lay the five accounts out side-by-side and highlight the differences among them.TheOFloinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14756711106266484327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-39051936056038108792011-01-02T17:34:06.871+11:002011-01-02T17:34:06.871+11:00Two conflicting accounts for the context of the de...<i>Two conflicting accounts for the context of the destruction of the Serapeum exist. Check your facts.</i><br /><br />I've checked the facts pretty thoroughly thanks. The <b>five</b> accounts of the destruction of the Serapeum all differ to some degree. But what I asked the person above was to justify their implication that their differences somehow allow Amenabar some creative wriggle Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-28382152842876511662011-01-01T22:13:17.351+11:002011-01-01T22:13:17.351+11:00@Tim. Two conflicting accounts for the context of ...@Tim. Two conflicting accounts for the context of the destruction of the Serapeum exist. Check your facts.Lydia Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-57560434645484849012010-12-31T10:56:00.377+11:002010-12-31T10:56:00.377+11:00@ Tim: I don't wanna come across as a sycophan...@ Tim: I don't wanna come across as a sycophant, but your Lavoisier-analogy is just beautiful.<br /><br />I must admit that I hadn't seen any episode of Sagan's "Cosmos" before I stumbled upon "Agora." However, I remember talking about Amenábar's movie to a widely respected American historian of medieval science at a conference last year and when I mentioned Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-7052638955715855832010-12-30T13:58:40.127+11:002010-12-30T13:58:40.127+11:00PS Any comment on the quality of the movie being t...PS Any comment on the quality of the movie being the director's key motive out to pay attention to metacritic:<br /><br />http://www.metacritic.com/movie/agoraGreg Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02262613527028934169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-73951320376046055572010-12-30T13:53:41.197+11:002010-12-30T13:53:41.197+11:00" he just included what he thought would be g..." he just included what he thought would be good drama."<br /><br />NO. We have on record in interviews why he made the film he did.<br /><br />1) Feeling burnout, he wanted to make a science fiction film.<br />2) To prepare, he started watching "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan.<br />3) He fell in love with the story of Hypatia as presented by Sagan.<br />4) He made Agora based on this Greg Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02262613527028934169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-45667591699602133802010-12-30T08:33:42.992+11:002010-12-30T08:33:42.992+11:00If your blog is devoted to history why review work...<i>If your blog is devoted to history why review works of cinematic art. </i><br /><br />Because it makes claims about history. Ones that are highly distorted. <br /><br /><i>Amenabar may have supposedly said some hyperbolic comment about Hypatia and Mars exploration to spruke his film after a glass of wine, I think we can be fair, and allow him that.</i><br /><br />Was he also drunk we he gaveTim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-9169230914862377172010-12-27T15:19:57.693+11:002010-12-27T15:19:57.693+11:00True, you have no idea. If your blog is devoted to...True, you have no idea. If your blog is devoted to history why review works of cinematic art. I think your brain must have crashed with your hard drive. Thank God we were spared those 'reviews'. Shakespeare's 'historical' plays are not historically accurate at all but people don't see them for that. Umm, like, If they want history they go to a history textbook. Amenabar Ariel Swartznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-58049206013146917462010-12-27T07:14:42.778+11:002010-12-27T07:14:42.778+11:00What a crass, shallow interpretation of a truly be...<i>What a crass, shallow interpretation of a truly beautiful, moving and very human story. </i><br /><br />The movie was pretty enough. How "moving" it was, however, depends on whether (a) you don't care that the things it claims happened actually didn't or (b) you've convinced yourself that they did happen despite the evidence. Historical movies work that way while moviesTim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-12293069092420499712010-12-27T07:09:24.960+11:002010-12-27T07:09:24.960+11:00Anyway when are you going to post anything new?
S...<i>Anyway when are you going to post anything new?</i><br /><br />Several reviews of books I read loast year got lost in a hard-drive crash. But I have a new review almost completed and will post it as soon as I get home from my Christmas holiday.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-60731372664283196862010-12-26T14:33:21.995+11:002010-12-26T14:33:21.995+11:00What a crass, shallow interpretation of a truly be...What a crass, shallow interpretation of a truly beautiful, moving and very human story. The phrase 'casting pearls before swine' comes to mind.Ariel Swartznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-68501910055944742722010-12-26T07:58:43.833+11:002010-12-26T07:58:43.833+11:00It must be the sentimentalism.
Anyway when are y...It must be the sentimentalism. <br /><br />Anyway when are you going to post anything new? Life's got the better off from you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-72519686620552174322010-12-26T03:23:37.517+11:002010-12-26T03:23:37.517+11:00Beware of anonymous anonymice, Tim!
Merry Christm...Beware of anonymous anonymice, Tim!<br /><br />Merry Christmas!Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-65049904561033128932010-12-25T16:03:43.256+11:002010-12-25T16:03:43.256+11:00You say the director claims it's historically ...<i>You say the director claims it's historically accurate. I haven't been able to find any statements from him on the net where he claims that he has made an historical document.</i><br /><br />In his speech at Cannes last year before its screening he claimed that if Hypatia had not been murdered we might now have colonies on Mars. Do you have a way to interpret that whereby the fantasy Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-87908239532539974152010-12-24T20:07:00.822+11:002010-12-24T20:07:00.822+11:00I thought the film was flawed as history but enjoy...I thought the film was flawed as history but enjoyable enough as cinematic art. You say the director claims it's historically accurate. I haven't been able to find any statements from him on the net where he claims that he has made an historical document. How could he when scenes like the experiment on the ship are obviously speculative? I think you are conflating art and history. You Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-57388542808557230762010-12-22T18:56:28.166+11:002010-12-22T18:56:28.166+11:00@Anonymous:
One of the hallmarks of Socrates'...@Anonymous:<br /><br />One of the hallmarks of Socrates's account is that he was critical of Cyril (and other churchmen) for interfering too much with secular politics. So he was obviously capable of making the distinction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-86745710465547579872010-12-22T16:52:28.407+11:002010-12-22T16:52:28.407+11:00Sorry, but there is nothing in the evidence to ind...<i>Sorry, but there is nothing in the evidence to indicate that religion played any part in her murder. Some vague handwaving about how they were often linked in this period won't cut it. If there was a religious aspect to her murder, where is it to be found in the evidence? History is done by interpreting the sources, not by making up neat stories.</i><br /><br />I see your point, Tim, but IAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-82688442517564508082010-12-22T11:34:14.004+11:002010-12-22T11:34:14.004+11:00The part of England I'm from, used to have a t...<i>The part of England I'm from, used to have a thriving Jewish community, up until a few hundred years ago when they were all murdered by their 'Christian' neighbours</i><br /><br />IIRC, King John ordered them expelled because he owed them too much money. <br /><br /><i>If Cyril was just tit-for-tatting with the Jews, why did the Jewish community of Alexandria utterly vanish?</i><TheOFloinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14756711106266484327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-32624340802656439622010-12-22T11:21:52.132+11:002010-12-22T11:21:52.132+11:00Christianity never had political power, as such, o...Christianity never had political power, as such, other than as another Italian State. We read of Popes roughed up by French troops at Anagni; but there is no example of Papal troops invading France and giving the king a beat-down. <br /><br />The Roman Church did not achieve independence from the Western Emperors until the Hildebrandine reforms. (By thus stripping the kings of ecclesiastical TheOFloinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14756711106266484327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-3052142292791643082010-12-22T06:52:13.250+11:002010-12-22T06:52:13.250+11:00Tim, is this the first time you've been called...<i>Tim, is this the first time you've been called a Christian apologist? </i><br /><br />No, but it always makes me laugh. It also usually means they have run out of any other response. These myths about early science are very dear to some people and they find it hard to let them go.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-21712734134021469542010-12-22T06:46:37.126+11:002010-12-22T06:46:37.126+11:00So what if they came back after Cyril died
So wha...<i>So what if they came back after Cyril died</i><br /><br />So what? It means the Jews of Alexandria didn't "utterly vanish". Which was what you claimed.<br /><br /><i> ... it doesn't make him a saint.</i><br /><br />What do I care about Cyril being a "saint" or not? I'm an atheist. In my opinion the guy was an A-grade arsehole. But all I'm interested in Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774463840913796679.post-24456375572966091632010-12-21T23:11:57.550+11:002010-12-21T23:11:57.550+11:00That's nonsense Tim. Cyril led a mob which dro...That's nonsense Tim. Cyril led a mob which drove all Jews away from Alexandria in 415, according to both Christian and non-christian sources. They gradually returned after Cyril's death but you seem to be denying that any persecution took place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com